Whole-Home Remodeling: Planning, Budgeting, Design, Restoration, and Building for the Long Term
Host:
We are talking this week about whole-home remodeling.
This is something I know you do a lot of, but you were telling me before the show that this past year especially, you have been doing a whole lot more of it.
This is a really popular trend right now.
Mike:
Yes, I think for a bunch of reasons.
Probably the biggest reason is, if you talk to anybody who has owned a house, or maybe bought a house more than a couple of years ago, they might be sitting on some equity.
These houses are worth more money than when people bought them, and frankly, they are worth investing in.
We have worked for a lot of people who have been in houses for many years, and sometimes not so many years, and it is amazing the equity they have to work with.
It is allowing people to do right by that house, do a real remodel, and fix it all up.
I think what is driving some of these bigger projects, the whole-home remodeling look, is that by the time homeowners get to us, they seem to have done a lot of things themselves.
They have done some painting.
Maybe they have painted their cabinets to try to buy some years on those.
Maybe they have done some snap-together flooring.
They have done odds and ends they were able to do, but over time, those things do not all happen at once.
So you are not designing this project top-down and trying to figure it all out.
It is a lot of those “buy some time” fixes.
And the flippers have been around Dane County, just like everywhere else, and they have done their damage.
Please go away.
Move to Illinois.
Host:
California, Illinois — yes.
Mike:
But at some point, you can only do so much of that stuff.
I think that might also be driving some of these whole-house remodels.
Host:
When we talk about doing an entire project, whether it is the kitchen, living room, trim, primary bath, primary bedroom, or those types of spaces, there are cost benefits too.
We are seeing significant equity in most homes and increases over the years.
But on the savings side, rather than doing each project individually — maybe this year we do the kitchen and next year we think about the primary bath — doing them all at once or as part of one project has some cost benefits, doesn’t it?
Mike:
There are.
I call them tag-along projects.
If the main project is something bigger, like a kitchen or an addition, and you know you are going to do that bath down the road, in prior years that might have been held off to save some money, marshal some resources, or maybe give yourself time to psychologically get over the kitchen.
But those tag-along projects can make sense.
If the main project is a kitchen and somebody wants us to look at a bath, I always think the savings is normally 20 to 30 percent, maybe even a little more.
You have to think about it like this: we do not farm much out, meaning we do not use that many subcontractors, but the ones we do use can price a bath along with the kitchen.
We get a better deal because they are not pricing it like they have to come in just to do the kitchen, then come back later just to do the bath.
There is an economy of scale there.
Same for us.
If we are doing drywall in the kitchen, a little more drywall in the bath is a lot easier to swallow than if we have to come in at a later date, get all set up, do all of our protections, close everything off, cover floors, cover cabinets, and do all that work again.
Our numbers are much less on those tag-along jobs too.
Host:
You mentioned drywallers and plumbers.
Not only does that mean having one trip and the preparation made there, but there are other benefits too.
Getting those teams in and getting that work done all in one shot can also move the project along.
When it comes to planning this stuff, design styles over the years have become less cut-and-dry.
There used to be hard and fast rules about what you had to do.
It is more nuanced now.
If you redo the kitchen, it might be nice to do some upgrades throughout the house so that one space does not stand out and say, “This room got done.”
It almost ties everything together better.
Mike:
It does.
We are seeing that too, where people are saying, “Okay, let’s look at the common areas.”
In our business, that means the spots that friends and relatives see.
So that might be the kitchen, powder bath, great room, family room, dining room, dens, and those areas.
This started getting hot and heavy a couple of years ago, where people were saying, “We are not going to just do the kitchen.”
Flooring actually drives a lot of this.
There have been so many houses over the years where, in that flip culture, someone would do one room and put flooring in there.
Then on the same floor, you might have two or three or four different types of flooring.
At some point, somebody has to make that right.
That trend of wanting continuity in flooring is driving a lot of this remodeling.
If we have to pull base moldings off to do new flooring — maybe new wood floor or LVT throughout the kitchen and the whole first floor — do we really want to put that same trim back on?
Maybe we will do something different.
It is getting more common to hit bigger areas.
Host:
When we talk about timeline and putting this stuff together, the design process is important because part of it includes things like permitting.
If we are doing a whole-home remodel, there may be additions and other things that require a little more conversation with the municipality, and maybe with an HOA.
That is part of the conversation too, isn’t it?
Mike:
It is.
With tag-along projects, we get a better deal on the permitting process too.
If we are doing rough plumbing in a bath and kitchen at the same time, that is one trip for the inspector.
They can come check both of them.
It does not work exactly like this, but we get a better deal buying one permit versus permitting two things separately.
That helps quite a bit.
The permitting process can be tricky once you get to the outside of the house because any time you change the footprint, you run into zoning and a bunch of rules.
If you have an HOA, you have to pass their test before you even get to zoning and pulling building permits.
All that comes into effect.
Host:
As we talk about these bigger projects, I also think about the scale of the project.
Working with a company that has drywallers, electricians, and different teams matters.
This is the type of project that requires not just skill, but manpower, equipment, and resources that you cannot find everywhere.
Mike:
No.
We used to do some of this work for other remodelers and builders around town because we have always been manpower-heavy.
Now we have enough of this work to keep our own people busy, so we do not really do that for our competition anymore.
It does not stop them from reaching out.
The manpower thing is a real issue here and everywhere, especially skilled people.
If you are doing one of these bigger projects, I know a lot of remodelers are not doing them or are cutting back on them because they do not have the staff to handle these things.
We have a couple things that really help us.
We actually have two electricians now.
Host:
Oh, really?
Mike:
I never thought we would have one, but now we have two.
We had to get Dale some help because we just buried him too much.
We also have construction crews that work on the new-construction side for other builders.
We can pull those people to help us on these big projects.
It is not that we could not do it with our remodel side, but when we can bring in five, six, or eight people from that side and really go hot and heavy to get us through the tough part — the heavy lifting of some of these bigger projects — it is very helpful and makes them go much quicker.
Host:
With bigger projects, we have to talk about budget.
Money is a very important part of any conversation.
One of the great things about going through that process is getting an understanding of the budget and saying, “Here is what we have to work with,” and getting that conversation started upfront.
Mike:
Yes.
These bigger projects, anything from an addition on up or a whole-home remodel, require a budget conversation at the first meeting.
I know the temptation is to say, “Well, I want to see what your number is.”
But for us to even get to a first number on a bigger project like this, we might have 15, 20, or 25 hours into it that we sort of have to donate just to come up with a first look.
So it is really important to us that you have thought about budget, and we can help you think about it.
We do not want you to keep it to yourself.
We do not expect you to hit the number exactly.
Nobody is that good.
Nobody has the benchmark to start with and can do a comprehensive project on their own house in their head and come up with a legit number.
But if somebody says, “We are talking about an addition,” maybe a starter room addition or the next level up, like a primary suite addition, you have to know that does not get done for $40,000 or $50,000 now.
It is quite a bit more than that.
We are not asking you to hit the exact number, but we want you to have a somewhat realistic idea of a budget before we go into our 25 hours of taking a stab at it.
The way we do it is we build the project in CAD.
We have to do enough initial design to get to first pricing, then take each individual component, fill it in, and put a number on it.
It is quite a bit of work.
I think sometimes people do not fully understand why they should respect the budget so much.
Host:
Personally, I would be really wary of working with someone who was not interested upfront in talking about my budget because that can lead you down different roads and create different expectations.
At the end of the day, that is an important part of how we get this done.
What is the ballpark of where we are working with the budget?
That ties into the work that even goes in upfront with CAD and design to get some numbers in that conversation going.
It also carries through the design process.
What is this project?
What are you looking to encompass with it?
What is your ultimate goal?
Is this something achievable that you are going to be satisfied with as a homeowner?
And then, of course, everyone needs to be satisfied with the quality and type of work that can be done within that budget.
Mike:
Yes.
My best advice for anybody thinking about doing a larger project is to do a step-by-step walkthrough of each room in the project and make lists.
Put together a scope before we even get there.
It is great for us when somebody has a pretty detailed list.
It does not have to be a plan, but their ideas are down on paper.
What do they want to accomplish in each room?
That is the way to get the best pricing.
If you are leaving things ambiguous and undecided, then we sort of have to plan for the worst in a lot of scenarios.
The more we know about what you want, the better we can do on pricing and the better deal we can give you right off the bat.
Host:
Does that help as part of the conversation with the homeowner?
What are you looking to achieve?
You mentioned going in and putting that list together.
That gives you and the designers a good roadmap for the expectation.
What do you wish to achieve with this remodel?
Is it to make the space look fresher?
Is it to make it flow better?
Is it to make the space feel more modern?
Obviously, it is likely a little bit of all of them, but having that understanding of the goals is vital.
Mike:
Yes.
It is great for our side because it gives us traction.
You can be more specific than that.
You can say, “Great room: flooring, lighting, I hate the trim, we need a new window over here, we want to open up this wall.”
Now we know.
Paint, too.
We have had people be really specific, and it really helps the design process.
It kind of jumps it ahead quite a bit.
From our side, we love it when people put some thought into their project.
They are investing in their project too.
They are willing to put the time into it.
You can go on Houzz and search “scope of work” under stories, and I think you will find articles and templates for how to do this.
All that stuff really helps.
It speeds up the design process, makes budgeting easier and more effective, and stops us from going down rabbit holes that maybe we should not waste time on.
Host:
I saw a line too that said, “Reduce stress.”
Speaking of things that cause stress, question marks are a big one.
Having as much stuff buttoned up as possible and eliminating as many question marks as possible helps.
Sometimes people will work with someone who says, “We will give you an allowance for this or an allowance for that.”
Having as few open-ended areas as possible is a great stress reliever, and it also helps move the process along with certainty, doesn’t it?
Mike:
Right.
From our side, we are not going to force you into decisions.
But somebody who has done their research online and identified what they like can give us some input.
That is not everybody’s talent.
I understand that.
Then you rely on good designers to help you through the process.
They are there whether you are great at it or not.
But the investment from a homeowner upfront — getting on Houzz, getting on Pinterest, looking at products, talking to friends — anything you can do to get yourself on better ground for your project and identify your style, knowing what you like or maybe what you do not like, all that really helps.
Host:
Planning is vital with everything you do in remodeling, but especially when it comes to whole-home remodeling.
I think of your home.
Your home itself had an original design.
There was an original builder who put that all together, and it generally has some type of style.
You want to make sure whatever you are doing with the design process fits.
If you have a farmhouse, you could probably achieve an ultra-modern kind of house, but at that point you have to weigh how you want the new stuff to fit with the original intent and design of the home, correct?
Mike:
Yes.
How do I say this in a polite way?
I like thinking of it in terms of this: all design has to make sense to somebody who did not go through the process.
There might be reasons, when you were standing in the old house, that you did what you did.
But five years from now, are your friends going to say, “What is up with that?”
There are things that are just not a good fit.
We took final pictures at a couple remodels last week.
One in particular was a pretty big job on the lake.
We were in there with the homeowners, and we all said the same kind of thing: “We need to go look at the old pictures.”
I think we did it right because it looks like it should have always been that way.
A lot of these older houses have been abused by design over the years.
Some weird stuff has gone in there, and maybe things did not fit.
There is nothing better for us than to hit it out of the park by bringing the house back to how it probably should have been done when it was brand new.
Host:
One of the things I think of is open concept.
Everybody loves open concept, and it is obviously very popular.
But if you have a Victorian-style home, you do not really want to be taking out walls.
It flies in the face of what people love about that style of home, correct?
Mike:
It does.
But there are lots of subtle ways to update an old house, especially a Victorian house.
We have done those in the past where, instead of knocking down walls, maybe we widen openings or doorways.
You look at the project and say, “There is something I like. I do not know what it is.”
But it is not a punch in the face.
It is subtle.
It is important to us not to ruin the character of an old house.
We love old houses.
Pretty much everybody who works at Edge lives in an old house.
I think we are all a little jealous sometimes of the new-house people because it is a labor of love.
But especially when we talk about bigger projects and getting into additions, there is nothing worse to me than looking at a house and saying, “I wonder when they put that addition on?”
That is not what you want people to say or think when they are pulling up to your place.
Host:
With older homes, you can still have modern conveniences and modern things in traditional styles.
They just need to be executed and designed properly, correct?
Mike:
Right.
We are at a special time because we have a ton of options.
Tile is a good example.
There are a lot of tiles that have a modern twist, but they are based on a really traditional style, so they fit into some of those older houses.
At the Builders’ Show a few weeks ago, I was amazed at some of the fixtures that have a really traditional look.
Not 20 years old traditional — 100 years old traditional — but with a modern twist.
Obviously, they are all modern pieces and parts, so they work like something new, but they have a look that can fit into certain locations.
It has to be a fun time to be a designer because sometimes you have to fight through all the options to find the product you need.
But that is what a good designer does.
Host:
Is it your truck I saw that has the body of a classic but underneath is really a very modern truck?
Mike:
Pretty much.
It is not like a brand-new car under there, but yes.
I have a 1966 Chevy pickup, which is, next to my wife, the love of my life.
I suppose I better throw my mom in there too.
It is a fun old truck.
It is not a show truck or anything, but it is the Edge Construction summer truck.
I need something dependable and with good brakes.
I do not want to run into you out on the Beltline or something.
It has to go around corners and start.
That is kind of the trend.
We love that old traditional look.
We do not love brakes from 1960.
We do not love plumbing fixtures from 100 years ago.
But we sure do like the look.
Host:
Disc brakes are phenomenal.
That is important.
As we have been talking, I keep jotting down the word “restoration.”
Some of what you do, especially with older homes, is really restoring it to its original beauty.
It is modern or updated, but it is also getting it back to what you have called “back to zero.”
It is really restoration on these homes.
Mike:
Right.
And you cannot ignore that this is not a surface thing.
You have to get in there, get dirty, tear stuff apart, and see what previous people did.
Then you have to say, “Okay, this has to get fixed.”
We work on a lot of old, small houses downtown.
I know if there is an upstairs bath we are going to remodel, when we open up that floor, we are going to find floor joists cut right in half with plumbing pipes run through.
You have to fix all that stuff.
You do not see that part on TV.
You see a little demo, and then they are putting in cabinets and tile.
That is like half the story.
If you want that job to last, if you want to get 50 years out of that new bath, you are not going to do it with a surface remodel.
You have to get in there and really dig.
Host:
This reminds me of This Old House.
One of the things I really love about watching what they do is obviously the design and the finished home, but I also love when they show them addressing the very things you are talking about.
Opening things up and discovering that a floor joist was cut to make room for something.
It is not just surface stuff being updated and repaired, but the stuff you do not see that is consequential to the longevity of the overall home.
They take the time to repair and restore those areas, not just say, “It worked before, so it will work going forward.”
Mike:
Yes.
Their goal is not to do a surface remodel and get the thing to last for 10 years.
That is wasteful.
It is not green.
It is foolish.
The goal should be to increase the life of that house.
How can we add 100 years to the life of this house?
Some people might think that is ridiculous talk, but it is really not.
We can do that now.
We have the technology.
We have the science behind us.
I like that show too.
They do real remodeling.
They never would think about leaving something that should be fixed.
I think that should be the goal for all of us.
Host:
It is really cool.
From doing the show with you over the years, I have gained a new appreciation for the kind of work you do and the work they do on that program as well.
It is important whether it is a kitchen remodel, basement remodel, whole-home restoration, or any type of remodeling job.
Your home is a big investment, and you want to make sure it lasts and is treated with respect.
Host:
As we talk about whole-home remodeling, contracts are there for everybody’s best interest.
You want to understand the contractor you are working with, different licensing, different types of insurance.
These are vital no matter what the project is, but especially when we talk about whole-home remodeling.
Understanding that there are contracts, and understanding what is in them, is an important part of this too, isn’t it?
Mike:
It is.
There are all different kinds of contracts.
We call ours a fixed-price contract, and that can be a misnomer.
I saw a competitor’s “fixed-price contract” last week, and it was based all on allowances.
They were going to start a pretty big project in a month, and no parts were ordered, much less picked out.
Design had not really happened.
They had a base plan, and then they said, “Cabinets, we are going to put $20,000 plus or minus in for cabinets. If you spend more, you have to pony up.”
On this fixed-price contract.
Host:
That does not sound fixed.
Mike:
It does not sound fixed, right?
There is another type of contract that is popular out east called cost-plus.
The contractor gives you some kind of ballpark number.
If you go over, you go over.
If you are below, you are below.
That is what they are used to out there.
I have friends who build out there, and basically every Monday morning, whatever the bills were for the previous week, you write them a check or the crew does not show up to work.
That is cost-plus.
I am not comfortable with that.
For one, I think all design should happen at once.
That is one reason we have the showroom.
We have cabinets, tops, and I think 300 or 400 countertop samples just in stone, not to mention other things.
We pull flooring from most of the showrooms around town.
We try to weed through the products they have and pick out things that people will actually want, that fit into designs, and that are not going to murder the budget.
We do a lot of that work upfront, and all that is in our showroom.
We can put together cabinets, tops, and everything else.
When you pick out those things prior to contract, people like us should be able to put a firm price on it.
This is what it is going to cost.
We are going to stick with it, come hell or high water.
I think that is the best plan.
That is how we are made.
We talked before about efficiently using time.
If you tell us exactly what you want, we should be able to price it and not change.
Then we can order things and get things, and we are not as reliant on hope and prayer.
Host:
Someone once said, “You cannot manage what you cannot measure.”
When we talk about contracts and managing, and the same thing with having a schedule, it is really hard for a homeowner and contractor to measure progress, ask good questions, or understand the project if there are no benchmarks.
If there are no details like, “This is the type of tile that is going to be used,” it is hard to keep track of the project.
People say, “Our project had all these cost overruns.”
And you wonder, going into the beginning, did you have those measurements?
Did you have those ideas of what you wanted and how the project could be managed to that?
Mike:
To be honest, I hear figures that probably average around 20 percent.
If somebody gives a price of $200,000 on a project, at the end they are getting another bill for $40,000 because of this or that.
There are lots of excuses.
This costs more, or this happened.
I do not believe in that kind of system.
I think you are much better off knowing what you are getting into.
It is also a lot more efficient for us to run this way.
When we sign a contract, we can order.
We order the tile, countertops, cabinets, plumbing fixtures, and everything we can get our hands on.
It does not make sense to buy paint then, but we probably would if we had to.
The more of that you can do from our side, the more it is pinned down.
The more you can have in your hands before you start the project, the fewer excuses you are going to have to make down the road.
Host:
Does it help having the space for doing that?
Having visited you guys a number of times, one of the nice things about the showroom is that there is part of the building people do not always see where the staging takes place.
You have a good-sized facility.
Mike:
Does anybody have too much room?
It seems like we are packed in, but we are organized.
There are times when our facility is taxed, but the benefits are great.
When I want to send our tile guy out to do a backsplash, I know all he has to do is walk into our warehouse.
It is on a shelf.
It is labeled.
He can get what he needs.
We have all those complementing pieces and parts.
To brag, we even have a shelf in our showroom of all the different grouts and colors and caulks.
When you have to run for one thing — I do not know if you have done a project by yourself, but how many times do you go to the hardware store?
Host:
Quite a few.
Mike:
That is how it is.
So the more you can have on hand, the more efficient we can be.