Remodeling Regrets and How to Avoid Them
Host:
This is the Home Remodeling Show, brought to you by Edge Construction. You can find them online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is all one word, Edge Construction Company dot com.
I hope you get a chance to check that out. If you have not been there recently, it is always being updated. There are also fantastic links from EdgeConstructionCompany.com to Facebook, Pinterest, and of course Houzz. Again, that is all accessible to you at EdgeConstructionCompany.com.
Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
Joining us this morning from Edge Construction is Mike Twohig. Mike, how are you doing this week?
Mike:
Great, Sean. Good to talk with you.
Host:
We are going to be talking remodeling regrets.
Mike:
Yeah. Regrets. We do hear about those.
Host:
Before we get to that, I think part of avoiding regrets is something we talk about a lot on this show: design. I am going to guess the best way to avoid remodeling regrets is to really put the work in up front, isn’t it?
Mike:
It is.
If you are a homeowner, and I do not fault anybody for this, you are usually thinking you can do less. You are hoping to be less invasive and still get the result you want.
But if you spend enough time on design, that helps. Part of our process is bringing our people in as the project progresses, walking through the house, and troubleshooting.
In an old house, there may be things you are not thinking about. If we update the wiring in the kitchen, there may be wires running through there that go upstairs or to other rooms. Somebody may have done something they should not have done, or maybe there is too much on one circuit and it starts affecting other areas of the house.
We have a master electrician on staff now. Before we had Dale and that side of the business, we worked with electricians who were great and knew what they were doing. They would bid that process.
That is how this usually goes. We define the scope between the homeowner and us, then put that work out to bid. It was not like we put it out to three electricians. We had one who did all our work, and they would price it out. Then we did the job, they did the job, we closed things up, and went home.
With Dale on staff, he is in the house and very conscious about not leaving something behind. I am not saying the other people cared any less, but because he works for us and is there, he sees things differently.
This happened to me this week. Dale called and said, “I have problems here. I need to replace devices.” When he says devices, he means switches and outlets, sometimes in rooms that are not part of the remodel. He will say, “I found this, and it is causing problems, and we need to fix it.”
Then that becomes a discussion between the homeowner and us.
So how do you avoid that regret? You do as much as you can up front. You try not to rush through the design process. You start doing things that make sense, not just to get the look you want, but also because half the work is behind the walls where you cannot see it.
Host:
You mentioned Dale, and I love hearing his stories. He was quite the find for you.
Dale, if you are listening this morning, great to have you along.
Even when the microphones are off, Mike tells stories about the amazing work Dale does. You mentioned attention to detail, and when we talk about remodeling regrets, having someone with an eye for those details up front — especially with electrical work while the walls are still open — can save a lot of heartache, headaches, and money in the long term.
Mike:
It can.
The line is blurry sometimes. When we are pricing things, I want to be a realist.
If we are doing a bathroom remodel, and maybe half the bathroom remodels we do have visible major problems, like loose tile in the shower, you do not have to be a carpenter to know water probably got behind there and created some rot.
I could price it right off the bat like everything is fine. We will pull the tile off, put new tile on, and not have to do much repair. But I think one way we stick to our contracted price as a remodeler is that we know we are going to find problems, and we know we are going to fix them.
There is a cost involved. I do not want to have to go back with a change order and have the price start going up and up. I would rather rip the Band-Aid off and plan for what we know is going to happen.
This is common, and it gives remodeling a bad reputation. On TV, they are always finding something. We can say they want drama, but for a really good, qualified remodeler who has been doing this a long time, it gets hard to fool them. We have been down this road too many times.
Realistic pricing from the start helps. It solves the problem of coming back to the homeowner for more money as the project goes along.
If we are talking about regrets, we have worked for several homeowners who used somebody else initially, and that was the worst part for them. They budgeted, thought they had it covered, and then the costs just kept coming.
Host:
I know how Edge Construction operates and how important it is to understand the budget and have realistic expectations for what these projects cost.
There are some people out there who will go as low as possible to get the bid, and then surprise, surprise, things change.
One of the big things with Edge Construction is understanding the budget and what it will realistically get you. For homeowners, one regret can be not understanding what they are paying for.
As we talk about the budget, what are we actually getting with this project?
Mike:
I have strong views on this.
The first time through, we could price your bathroom remodel with laminate countertops, a cheap particleboard cabinet, and vinyl on the floor. But unfortunately, nobody ever picks that stuff.
When you go through the design process, one great thing that has happened in remodeling is that homeowners are more interested in putting in quality products that will last.
I think most people have had experience with a cheaper vinyl floor that looked good for ten minutes and then started to show wear and fall apart. Then you think, “I wish we would have put something better down.”
People are staying in their houses longer now. That is definitely the trend. It is not always about looking for the next move-up house. People feel better about putting in natural products and better products.
Kitchen lighting is another great example. Our standard lighting package almost nobody has to add to. We include under-cabinet lights. We know we are going to daylight that kitchen. We know we are going to install some surface-mount fixtures, whether that is over an island or somewhere else.
Every time you add one of those things, that should not be an extra because that is what everybody does now. If you say, “I do not want under-cabinet lights,” we can pull that out and your price will come down.
But I think the more honest way is to start with what we think is actually going to happen.
Host:
Does anybody ever ask to remove the under-cabinet lights?
Mike:
No.
Host:
Does anybody do linoleum flooring anymore? Is there still a place for that?
Mike:
There is.
For us, it is sometimes in a basement bath. A lot of times, people remodel a basement because they want the extra great room space and maybe a bedroom down there, but they do not really have somebody staying in that bedroom often. Maybe someone visits once or twice a year and ends up down there, so the bathroom does not get a lot of use. I totally get that.
There are better products now. You can buy upgraded vinyl. We call it sheet vinyl. That is one big sheet of vinyl. It fell out of favor, and I think rightly so, but it is making a little comeback. It looks better and performs better.
You can still buy the bottom-of-the-barrel product, which I do not recommend, and we will not sell it to you.
We also do quite a bit of glue-down LVP, the vinyl plank flooring. We can give it a tile look, and it is very durable. There is no comparison between old sheet vinyl and this newer product.
Host:
I remember in the 1970s and 1980s, it felt like every house and every kitchen had that vinyl or linoleum floor.
Mike:
We actually keep an informal running record of how many layers of that we have had to peel off in kitchens.
I think we had a kitchen with six layers. It was almost two inches thick. The vinyl would wear out, so they would put down another layer of underlayment, quarter-inch plywood, then vinyl, and then another layer and another layer.
Taking that off is not pleasant. It is a pain to get out of there. But at some point, somebody has to do what is right by the house.
Host:
That is a great point. We are talking this morning with Mike Twohig, owner of Edge Construction. The website is EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is all one word, Edge Construction Company dot com.
Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
You mentioned doing right by the house. As we talk about regrets or things you will not regret, budgets matter. Money makes the world go around. But doing right by the house, putting in the effort, and making that a priority is something you will never regret.
Mike:
A lot of this came out of the 2006, 2007, and 2008 era with that dirty four-letter word: flip.
House flippers. There were shows on TV showing people how to do it. Even now, there are huge companies doing this in our area and every major metro. They buy up cheaper houses, the lower end, and do just enough to make their money.
Those decisions are not good for the house.
Somebody buys that house and wants to stay long-term, but then they have to go backward before they can go forward. It is not like you can add on to the product that was put in by people flipping houses.
So if you are flipping houses, just stop it.
It is wasteful. If we are putting in product that takes energy to produce, install, and truck in, and it has to be replaced every eight or ten years, that is not great for the life of the house.
We have talked many times about wood floors that can be refinished. They are making a huge comeback. If you care about being green, that is a great product. If you do not, that is up to you, but it is still a great product.
We are refinishing floors that are 100 years old, and they still have 100 years of life left in them. That has to be one of the greenest products ever produced.
I like when things do not have to be replaced in 10 or 20 years. If they do, I feel like we did not do our job. And if we are selling products that have to be replaced, I do not want to do that either.
Host:
When you talk about house flips, you can almost tell which week a house was redone based on what flooring was on special at the big-box store.
Are you getting called in less often to fix previous errors like that, or are you still seeing those pop up around town?
Mike:
We are going to be dealing with it for a while.
There are fewer people doing it now, so there are fewer new ones. But we are still dealing with the results.
Where it really hurts is with a young homeowner or first-time buyer. They come in, and to them it looks like things have been done. They think, “Great. I do not have to worry about the kitchen or bath for a while.”
Within a couple of years, they figure out it was not done well or the products were not going to last.
For a young homeowner, that is really walking into a buzzsaw, and I do not like that.
Host:
It is never good to see.
That is one of the great things about working with Mike Twohig and Edge Construction: doing the job right, putting the plan in place, and working with people who understand the long term.
It is a great day to pick up the phone and call 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
You can learn more online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com.
More of the Home Remodeling Show with Edge Construction is next here on 1310 WIBA.
Host:
This is the Home Remodeling Show, brought to you by Edge Construction. You can find them online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is all one word, Edge Construction Company dot com.
Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
I hope you get a chance to stop by the website. If you have not been there recently, they are always updating EdgeConstructionCompany.com.
We are talking about remodeling regrets. Last segment, we talked about people buying a house from a flipper.
I know sometimes folks are tempted to try things themselves, even if they are not flipping the house. They might see a big-box special on flooring or another product and end up regretting it.
Do you get called in by people who say, “We tried other ways. Now let’s do it the right way”?
Mike:
We do, and I understand the temptation. It takes being an adult to admit that you made a mistake.
One thing that really drove this was click-together flooring or snap-together flooring. If you watch it online, it looks like you just click it together. But they do not show you how hard it is to finish it correctly around doorways and trim that is not straight.
If you have baseboard running along, you can put a piece of shoe molding and cover the gap. But eventually you will get to a door, and that really needs to be undercut.
Like most things in construction, prep is really important. It is not exciting to level floors, smooth things out, and make sure you have the right substrate underneath. It is more fun to just click the flooring together like Legos.
We see a lot of stopgap work. Maybe the carpet got to a point where the homeowner could not deal with it anymore. It was not in the cards to do a full remodel yet, so they got some click flooring and it got them through.
But then they may have three or four different types of flooring on the main level. As you mature as a homeowner, you start wanting continuity. You start looking at design as a whole, and that is where that stuff can fall apart.
By the way, click flooring is buyer beware.
On the low end of click flooring, there are real problems starting to show up, mainly because it expands and contracts so much. It might first show up in front of a patio door. On a sunny day, sunlight hits the flooring in a circle and expands it out. When the sun goes down and it contracts, sometimes those joints let loose, especially on the ends of the planks.
Then you have a problem. How many times can you reattach it before it will not reattach anymore?
Builders drove a lot of this too. Even in new construction, you see a lot of this product. But you will notice builders have gone against their basic instinct to save a buck and are putting in better product now. They have eliminated the lower end of that flooring.
We are very careful with what we sell because we do not want that problem.
The mid-grade and above on click flooring and LVT is getting into territory where you could almost put a real wood floor down. So would I rather have an oil-based product that is not going to last 200 years, or a real wood floor that has a different feel?
There are no secrets in construction. If there is a product that is not lasting, enough people will experience that and not want it anymore. We tend to veer toward better products anyway.
Host:
Speaking of products and trying to buy more time, another regret can be simply putting paint on cabinets.
When people see what it costs to replace cabinets, they may say, “Let’s just sand these up,” or maybe not even sand them, and throw a coat of paint on them. They cross their fingers and hope it gets them through the year.
I know that is an area where a lot of folks have regrets, though some of it is out of necessity.
Mike:
It can buy you a few years. The flippers are great at this. They shoot a coat of paint on something and make it look new to an inexperienced buyer.
Buyer beware. It may actually look pretty good.
Martha Stewart is still around encouraging some of this stuff, so I make fun of her a little bit. But the idea is to make something look better. The question is whether it will last.
We get probably one out of 10 homeowners who approach us with something like, “We just want new countertops. Can you paint our cabinets?”
A lot of times when I look at those cabinets from the 1980s, 1990s, or early 2000s, they are builder-grade. They have thin shelves, hardware that was not great, and drawer boxes that are not maple dovetail drawer boxes, which is what we sell.
The drawer glides are cheaper and not soft-close. They cannot support much weight. They have been run through the mill by a family for 20 years, and there is not much left.
So are you going to invest half of what a new set of cabinets would cost into repainting them well? Or are you going to do something as a homeowner to buy yourself a few years?
I understand buying a few years. What I do not like is throwing good money after bad.
We are not going to take a used-up cabinet, put paint on it, replace all the drawer glides and door hardware, and put a bunch of labor into it.
Also, a lot of those kitchens had fatal flaws. Maybe there was not enough counter space around the cooking area. Maybe there was not a landing zone near the refrigerator. Maybe instead of a peninsula, you want an island.
You cannot really fix the kitchen that way. You cannot update all the mechanicals. You can get to a few things, but not everything. It does not turn into a great deal.
That said, we have done a couple of these. We have one online from a beautiful house in Bishops Bay. The cabinets were maybe 10 years old and were a great cabinet when they were installed. They were very well put together with great materials and were not failing in any way.
We painted them, and I think that paint job could last 20 years or more. The cabinets can too.
Host:
Do you ever run into a kitchen in an old-house type of home where the cabinets are really well-built with real wood, and you want to preserve some of that?
Could you maybe put in an island with new cabinets that match the old ones, but keep as much of the original quality as possible?
Mike:
It happens occasionally.
I feel guilty tearing out something that was beautifully built in an older house. Usually it ends up being something like a buffet area or a pantry-style area.
They did some weird things back then, too. Cabinets might not be as deep. Instead of being 24 inches deep, they might be 17, 18, or 19 inches.
They also often brought upper cabinets down to within about a foot of the lower cabinets, so you do not really have good workspace. There is not much we can do about that while preserving the old cabinets.
There are also other things, like plaster that is 100 years old. It starts to loosen up. It goes through the lath, whether metal lath or wood lath, and we call that keying. When they trowel it on, you see the flat part up front, but it goes through and locks behind the lath. Those keys start to break off, and the plaster can get loose.
At some point, somebody has to start over and get it down.
Insulation is another thing. Maybe we can take those old cabinets off and put them back on, but you still have a cold wall that is probably not insulated. That is how remodeling goes.
Host:
When you mentioned plaster, I realized I have seen that in old buildings where it almost looks like part of the wall is going to fall off. I never thought about what was happening there.
Mike:
If I am walking through your house and you have plaster walls, you are probably going to see me put my hand on it and push. That is what I am looking for. I am looking for movement in that plaster because we want to know what we are getting into.
Host:
That is important stuff.
We are talking this morning with Mike Twohig, owner of Edge Construction. You can find them online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is all one word, Edge Construction Company dot com.
Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
Edge Construction brings you the Home Remodeling Show right here on 1310 WIBA.
Host:
This is the Home Remodeling Show, brought to you by Edge Construction. You can find them online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is all one word, Edge Construction Company dot com.
It is a great website and resource. If you have not been over there recently, head over and check out some of the great work they do at Edge Construction.
There are also links to Facebook, Pinterest, and a really cool link from EdgeConstructionCompany.com to their Houzz page. Houzz is a great resource for getting ideas and seeing the great work they do at Edge Construction.
Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
We are talking about remodeling regrets. A lot of this comes back to planning, finding the right budget, making sure what you are doing will last, and making good design decisions.
People like to get a little wild sometimes with unique colors and other things. The nice thing about paint is that you can paint over it, but some choices are harder to change.
When it comes to regret, maybe one issue is not thinking things all the way through and focusing on the short term instead of the long term. Obviously, when you do a remodel, you want some personalization. But finding that balance is where working with good designers and the team at Edge Construction matters.
You want a unique space, but you do not want it to be wild and weird.
Mike:
Right. There is a line you should think about before crossing.
I am not going to tell someone that if they really love a certain style, they should not do it. More power to you.
Generally, in the common areas — kitchens, great rooms, and the spaces where friends and family will spend time — people tend to be a little more conservative. I think that is good advice.
That does not mean you cannot take a chance on a backsplash tile or an accent. Maybe it is something that warms the space up, like a wood wall or beams.
We see people’s design ideas come out more in other areas. A powder room is one. It is a place everybody sees, but it is small. If you do something and hate it in five years, you do not have to sell the farm to fix it.
Basements are great for taking chances. We have seen people do cool things that I do not know if I would have the guts to do on my main level. But in a kitchenette, bar area, or basement bathroom, it can work.
Some of the coolest bathrooms we have done have been basement baths because people are willing to take chances and bring in more eclectic design. Those things can shine.
We have also seen people bring in artwork, which can be moved. That is a cool way to show personality. Maybe it is furniture or something else that shows your personality. If you get sick of it, you can move it to the basement or garage.
That being said, some of the kitchens we are doing now have bold colors. Ten years ago, I did not see that coming. I thought it was too crazy. Now it has become almost standard.
If you are doing bold cabinets, it works if you are more conservative in some other areas. But if everything is bold and crazy, I feel like the walls are closing in a little bit.
Host:
When you mentioned basements, that is where my mind jumped too. People view the basement as almost bonus space. I love seeing some of the remodels and projects you have done at Edge Construction.
You mentioned bathrooms and other spaces where you get to know the personality of the homeowner a little bit. I know you have talked about putting in things like stages in basement spaces. Obviously, you are not going to put a stage in your living room, but in your basement, what a great place for something like that.
Mike:
I have two granddaughters, and they would love it if we had a little stage with a curtain where they could do shows. I would love it too, to be honest.
We have a couple of jobs coming up where I am going to do a live-edge top. That does not seem too risky to me. It is wood. I love doing wood things.
We also just did a custom double bookcase that is actually a door to a secret room. It is done now and turned out great. We have a few other things to finish before we put pictures up.
Is that risky? I do not know. I think there are so many ways to let your personality come out with things that are movable or with certain design elements.
We have done some pretty wild backsplash tiles or floor tiles in a master bath. There are so many options now that it is hard not to pick something with personality.
Host:
The phrase “load-bearing and unique” — you do not want those two mixing.
Mike:
That would be interesting.
We like doing some of that challenging stuff. If you wanted to open up a load-bearing wall and do it with beams that look old, it is not that you cannot do that. We rarely see it, but you can.
We have a remodel coming up where the homeowners really love antiques, and there is a lot of that style in the house. We have to stay with that style. Maybe we will have some of those things coming through in the pictures. It should be exciting.
Host:
As Mike mentioned those pictures, make sure you are following Edge Construction online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is all one word, Edge Construction Company dot com.
There are also links to Facebook, Pinterest, and Houzz.
Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That is 636-EDGE.
We are talking this week about remodeling regrets and how to avoid them.
Mike, you get to walk into a lot of houses and see a lot of things where people wonder what someone was thinking. It is always easier to blame the previous owners. But you also run into folks who made design or remodeling attempts themselves.
I want to ask about the importance of understanding your skill level. I know you get calls from folks who thought they could do something and then say, “We cannot. We need a professional.”
Mike:
A lot of times with remodeling, the question is not just what should we do or what should it look like. It is where should we stop?
I look at one or two jobs a month where one part of a couple says, “I can handle this,” and the other one says, “I do not know.”
Before you know it, they are down to studs on the first floor of a house they bought, and it is January with no insulation. They need wiring, insulation, drywall, design, and more. It can be pretty overwhelming.
We also find rooms designed on their own. You might have four or five rooms on the main floor, and there is not much continuity. The flooring changes. You can tell things were not done at the same time.
We even find houses with different styles of woodwork, trim, and doors based on who was living there at the time. Maybe they did one room and did not do the rest of the house.
It can be overwhelming.
The budget is always a consideration. If we are going to do the remodel, homeowners often ask if there is a way they can save money. Can they do demo?
If it is a kitchen, our guys can demo that kitchen in about half a day. That means dead-ending electricity, closing off plumbing so the rest of the house still works, and doing it correctly.
If there is a tile floor and you want to rip that out, please go for it. That is not a fun job. We will let you do it. I joke a lot, but that really is a tough job, and it does not happen for free.
Once in a while, we get a homeowner who wants to do that.
By the same token, we get homeowners who say, “We are maxed out. Can we paint? Can we paint the trim?”
When we paint your trim, you are probably not going to see a nail hole. It will have perfect lines because that is how we do it. We have really skilled people, and it does cost money.
Painting can be a big savings for a homeowner, but it is hard to match the quality of somebody who has been doing it for their whole life. Still, there are ways to save some dollars.
Host:
We are talking this morning with Mike Twohig, owner of Edge Construction. You can find them online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com.
Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
Edge Construction brings you the Home Remodeling Show right here on 1310 WIBA.
Host:
This is the Home Remodeling Show, brought to you by Edge Construction. You can find them online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is all one word, Edge Construction Company dot com.
Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
We are talking this week about remodeling regrets.
I am paging through and looking at pictures, and I am seeing some brickwork. One thing I feel can become a regret is when people cover up beautiful existing materials.
We talked about floors earlier, like covering up beautiful wood floors. I also see older houses with really nice stonework or fireplaces, and people have tiled over them, painted over them, or walled over them.
Sometimes you find those things and think, “This is a good thing.”
There are areas where preserving what is already there really matters, isn’t there?
Mike:
Yes. Some of that is hard to know ahead of time.
We have a large remodel going on downtown on Dayton Street. So many of those big old houses downtown were split into college housing, upstairs and downstairs, and then the maintenance stopped sometime in the 1970s.
This one was a predictable downtown apartment disaster, but it is going to be a beautiful house when we are done.
During the walk-through before we started, we got to an area with a fireplace. There was plaster everywhere around it, and it had a cool old mantle built into it.
Heather, who leads our design department and is the brains behind all the beautiful pictures, said, “We are going to open up this chimney, and we are really hoping we find something cool behind there.”
If we did not, we would have had to make it look good anyway. But this one had something good to uncover.
Everything old becomes new again. At some point, somebody looked at that brick and thought, “I do not like looking at that. I just want a smooth white wall there.”
Now, when we find it, that 100-plus-year-old brick adds a lot of personality to the space. We are able to bring that back in the right way.
Host:
We are talking this morning with Mike Twohig, owner of Edge Construction. You can find them online at EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is Edge Construction Company dot com.
It is a great day to start that conversation with Edge Construction. Their telephone number is 608-636-3343. That number is 636-EDGE.
Mike, before we wrap up this week, I want to talk about the website and Houzz. Houzz is such a great resource for people.
As we talk about planning and getting design done, it is never a bad time to start thinking. It is always fun to look at the work Edge Construction does, and it can spur a lot of ideas.
Mike:
It does.
Houzz is my favorite. I know there is Pinterest, Facebook, and Instagram. I have friends who tell me I have not posted on Instagram in a while, but I do not use that much.
When I am looking, I like Houzz because it always seems like I can find what I am looking for.
We have more than 180 projects on Houzz. We have reviews there, so you can see what it is like to work with us.
Once you have a Houzz account, which does not cost anything, you can search and find what I call the picture in your head. You can search your type of space and see what other people have done. It is very cool that way.
I do not know how many millions of pictures contractors have put on there, but the library is amazing.
At first, Houzz had a lot of ten-foot-high ceilings and ten-million-dollar houses. Now it has changed. There is a real section of normal on there too, and that has been helpful for design in general.
You make better choices when you can see pictures and visualize.
Host:
Everything looks good in a ten-million-dollar house, but it matters to see projects in the real world.
Houzz is national and global, so you can look at things from all over the world and get really good ideas.
If you have those ideas, it is a great day to pick up the phone and call Edge Construction at 608-636-3343. That is 636-EDGE.
You can find the Houzz link right from EdgeConstructionCompany.com. That is all one word, Edge Construction Company dot com.
Edge Construction brings you the Home Remodeling Show right here on 1310 WIBA.